It’s commonly accepted today that Learning and Development functions must move beyond simply delivering courses. We’re more focused than ever on proving performance, impact, and ROI. But are we making any real progress?
In a special live-recorded episode of the podcast, we brought together three of the most respected voices in L&D—Laura Overton, Donald Clark, and Gemma Paterson—for an unfiltered discussion on the present and future of workplace learning.
While their perspectives varied, all three panelists agreed on one thing: too many L&D teams are falling short when it comes to driving real business impact.
This was a firm but fair assessment of the profession in 2025. The panelists challenged long-standing assumptions, shared real-world examples, and called for a shift in both mindset and methodology across the industry.
Here’s a recap of the key insights and bold ideas from this eye-opening episode.
Listen to this live podcast episode and our deep back catalogue here.
Is the term “Learning and Development” still fit for purpose?
Our conversation began with a thoughtful, but provocative challenge. Donald argues that the term “learning and development” itself is outdated. It’s become synonymous with course delivery, and particularly with courses that add minimal value for businesses.
“I’ve been in this business for 40 years. And in that time, things have changed quite dramatically—in my opinion for the worse. L&D is like a wagon without a horse. It has no real purpose, other than course delivery. We’ve delivered all these very abstract courses—my least favorite being “leadership.” Has it resulted in better leadership? I think not.
Donald believes the profession should frame itself around performance.
“We’re making ourselves irrelevant because we’ve abandoned performance, productivity, and competence. We’re missing a goal and a purpose. And we’re being bypassed. On most of the projects I’ve worked on over the past 10 years, L&D hasn’t been present. It’s being driven by other parts of the business.”
Gemma’s perspective is slightly less stark than Donald’s. “There are progressive teams doing things differently. I see people really thinking about impact, and identifying what they’re really trying to change in the business. We’re still focused on having the right skills and the right mix of people in roles, but the focus is not just on training people to train them. It’s on the business impact.”
“We’re making ourselves irrelevant because we’ve abandoned performance, productivity, and competence. We’re missing a goal and a purpose.” - Donald Clark
Why can’t we put the theory into practice?
While not all panellists agreed that L&D isn’t achieving its aims, there was a general agreement that many functions don’t reach their full potential.
For Laura, there’s often a disconnect between ideas and actions. “I don’t see the profession as being boxed in, based on how we describe ourselves. High-performing learning teams are better at asking the question and getting ‘shoulder to shoulder’ with the business itself to work on the same problem together.
“We know the theory of that. But the practice has been interesting.
“Maybe it’s because of our mindset—how we think and approach our work. I argue for a bold mindset, and knowing that you’re not the only person working on these issues. What happens if you collaborate and work together to improve performance?”
All our panellists agree that L&D professionals typically say the right things. We know we need to push for impact and emphasize performance. But to be seen as a credible partner takes so much hustle. We’re swimming against the tide.
And we need a serious shift in mindset to get past this point.
To be seen as a credible partner takes so much hustle. We’re swimming against the tide.
How can we change this mindset?
Laura has deep knowledge of top-performing L&D teams. She tells this story of a professional who made the intentional choice to change his approach, and how this opened up L&D for everyone.
“I spoke to a learning leader who was trying to transform and reinvent their team recently. The organization was changing, and he was trying to shift his mindset. He wanted to go into conversations not as an expert, but as an ‘explorer.’”
“That intentional decision to go in and listen was incredibly difficult. But because he had named it and practiced it this way, he was intentional about holding back his expertise and exploring with these stakeholders.
This is a mindset shift for an L&D professional which can then also create change for others.
“The cycle improves itself. The more the business can see that you’re curious about what’s important to them, the more they’ll open up. So we have to be brave and bold. If we don’t do this, the risk is that we get so fearful that we can only say ‘yes.’”
How else can L&D teams drive impact effectively?
Donald’s assessment depicts an L&D function which provides learning. They deliver what’s asked, and then go searching for impact from there.
But we really want to understand the problem at the outset, determine the outcome, and work backwards from there. So how can we reorder and reframe this work?
“The smart, progressive organizations learn how to work within their culture,” says Laura. “When they’re asked for a course, an avatar, or a chatbot, they can turn it around and ask why they think they need this. Even if they’re being treated like a supply shop, they know how to work the game.
For Gemma, it can be as simple as asking the right questions from the start. “One of my favorite questions is, ‘what would look different as a result of doing this?’ That’s quite different from asking ‘how can I help?’”
Reframing this conversation was a common thread throughout our live event. And it’s not something that just happens overnight. “Be prepared to work through resistance,” says Gemma. “It will feel sticky. And you can’t go into that conversation cold. You have to signal that you’re going to do something differently.”
“When you give someone the space to have that conversation, it’s almost like you’re co-creating together. It unlocks something different.” - Gemma Paterson
The curious case of AI training
Our conversation looked in detail at the adoption of artificial intelligence in organizations, and L&D’s particular role in building skills in this area. This is among the most urgent upskilling topics in our industry today, and Donald believes that L&D professionals are being left behind.
“Looking at the nuts and bolts of AI in business, not once have I found good examples from the L&D perspective. In every other area—marketing, finance, legal—there are brilliant case studies. But we need to be honest, because I think L&D is playing a shrinking role.
“That’s because L&D has never been responsible for the overall performance or productivity of an organization. They’re delivering training; it’s a portion. But don’t just deliver a portion. Jump on this bigger wagon to be more relevant.”
For Laura, it again comes back to how these conversations are had internally. “I was asked how L&D leaders can build a business case for better AI training for senior leaders. And that’s simply the wrong question. If the senior leaders haven’t got a business for using AI, then we’re trying to sell them something they don’t want.”
“If they’re used to telling their L&D team ‘I need to teach everyone how to use AI,’ they’re going to frame the conversation that way,” says Gemma. “But if you frame the conversation around unlocking productivity, augmenting capability, and reducing the time it takes to do certain things, that’s a very different conversation.
“How do we work with technology teams, business design teams, and process teams? The more progressive teams are doing things to address the systemic issues that organizations are facing—as opposed to just training.”
About the experts
Laura Overton
Laura Overton is an award-winning L&D analyst and co-author of Evidence-Informed Learning Design. As the founder of Towards Maturity and a champion of research-led practice, Laura has spent her career helping organizations unlock the potential of workplace learning through data, insight, and innovation. She continues to influence the field through her writing, speaking, and advisory work.
Donald Clark
Donald Clark is a learning technology entrepreneur, author, and outspoken advocate for the use of AI in education. With decades of experience in digital learning, he is the CEO of Wildfire Learning and a former CEO and founder of Epic Group. Donald is known for his bold perspectives on the future of learning, captured in his books like Artificial Intelligence for Learning and his influential blog.
Gemma Paterson
Gemma Paterson is Head of Culture Innovation at Lloyds Banking Group, where she leads work that reimagines how culture, learning, and innovation intersect in large organizations. With a background in digital learning and organizational development, Gemma is passionate about creating environments that foster curiosity, collaboration, and meaningful change at scale.
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